Nota Bene Podcast Ep. 159
U.S. Legislative Update: What to Expect from the Divided 118th Congress with Elizabeth Frazee and Chani Wiggins of TwinLogic Strategies
Thank you for downloading this transcript.
Listen to the original podcast released February 15, 2023 here:
https://www.sheppardmullin.com/notabene-456
In this episode, Elizabeth Frazee, CEO and Co-founder of TwinLogic Strategies, and Chani Wiggins, Principal at TwinLogic, join host Scott Maberry to discuss what's likely on the horizon for the 118th Congress, including prospects for the debt limit and the potential for bipartisan action on a farm bill, tax extenders, and immigration reform.
Guests:
About Elizabeth Frazee
As Co-Founder and CEO of TwinLogic Strategies, Elizabeth Frazee is a 30-year veteran of Washington D.C. politics and was recently named a Top Lobbyist by The Hill. She worked for over a decade in senior positions on Capitol Hill, spent years as an executive, leading government relations for tech and entertainment companies, and since 2003 has consulted for companies, trade associations and nonprofits.
After working for her home state Senator from North Carolina, Elizabeth served as press secretary for the House Energy and Commerce Committee. An attorney, she completed her congressional service running the legislative office of Representative Bob Goodlatte.
Once in the private sector, Elizabeth was director of government relations at the Walt Disney Company. She joined AOL in the late 90s as vice president of public policy and ran its Congressional team. In 2003 she left AOL-Time Warner to build the private lobbying practice that became TwinLogic Strategies in 2009.
Elizabeth is an expert at managing issue campaigns and running industry coalitions. She delivers results for her clients by combining a thorough understanding of policy, communications, and politics with an impressive network of relationships.
About Chani Wiggins
As a Principal with TwinLogic Strategies, Chani Wiggins draws on 20 years of federal government experience to assist clients with various policy interests in Congress and within the Administration.
Chani spent 11 years on Capitol Hill, serving as Senator Claire McCaskill's (D-MO) Legislative Director, former Senator Mark Dayton's (D-MN) Deputy Chief of Staff, and former Congressman Bart Stupak's (D-MI) Legislative and Communications Director. She was also a senior policy aide for Senator Tom Harkin (D-IA) and professional staff on the Health Education and Labor Committee. She later served as Assistant Secretary for Legislative Affairs at the U.S. Department of Homeland Security.
Since September 2010, Chani has represented clients with priorities in national security, telecommunications and technology, and energy policies. She also serves as a strategic advisor for the Government & Technology Services Coalition (GTSC), an organization of small and mid-sized company executives that develop and implement solutions for the federal homeland and national security sector.
Chani is known for building relationships on both sides of the political aisle, co-founding the Bipartisan Legislative Directors Group in 2007 to find common ground among the Senate's 100 Legislative Directors.
About Scott Maberry
As an international trade partner in Governmental Practice, J. Scott Maberry counsels clients on global risk, international trade, and regulation. He is also a past co-chair of the Diversity and Inclusion Working Group for the Washington D.C. office, serves on the firm's pro bono committee, and is a founding member of the Sheppard Mullin Organizational Integrity Group.
Scott's practice includes representing clients before the U.S. government agencies and international U.S. Department of Treasury Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC), the Department of Commerce Bureau of Industry & Security (BIS), the Department of Commerce Import Administration, the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), the Department of State Directorate of Defense Trade Controls (DDTC), the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ), the International Trade Commission (ITC), the Committee on Foreign Investment in the U.S. (CFIUS), He also represents clients in federal court and grand jury proceedings, as well as those pursuing negotiations and dispute resolution under the World Trade Organization (WTO), North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) and other multilateral and bilateral agreements.
A member of the World Economic Forum Expert Network, Scott also advises the WEF community in the areas of global risk, international trade, artificial intelligence and values.
Transcript:
Scott Maberry:
Welcome to Sheppard Mullin's Nota Bene, a twice monthly podcast for the C-suite where we tackle the current, national, and international headlines affecting multinationals doing business without borders. I'm your host, Scott Maberry. Let's get started.
Welcome to episode 159, our first quarter check in on US legislation. My guests today are Elizabeth Frazee and Chani Wiggins of TwinLogic Strategies. Before I introduce them, I'd like to thank our listeners in over 100 countries worldwide. We're grateful you've joined us. And please do keep the feedback coming. It does influence our programming.
Elizabeth Frazee was named a top lobbyist by the influential newspaper, The Hill. She spent a decade serving as a Senior Advisor and Counsel to Republican House members, including former Judiciary Committee Chairman Goodlatte, as well as the powerful Energy and Commerce Committee. She then left the Hill to lead government relations for tech and entertainment companies. She then founded TwinLogic Strategies. That firm serves clients with federal policy interests in technology, communications, IP, antitrust, tax and trade, among other issues. Welcome, Elizabeth.
Chani Wiggins is also with TwinLogic Strategies. She's the Democrat twin. She worked 11 years on the Hill. She was the Lead Policy Advisor to former Senator Claire McCaskill, and then served as Assistant Secretary of Legislative Affairs at the Department of Homeland Security for the Obama administration. She's been in the private sector for more than a decade, advising private and nonprofit clients on tech, telecom, clean energy, and climate issues. Elizabeth and Chani, welcome back to the podcast.
Elizabeth Frazee:
Thanks, Scott. We're pleased to be here.
Scott Maberry:
The headlines have told us that the House is flipped to a Republican majority, but a narrow one, also that the Senate has a narrow Democratic majority. We've read all about the vicious fight for Speaker of the House and all the divisions within the Republican Party, what I might kind of think about now as a fight for the soul of the Republican Party. We've read that there's a US debt limit and I'm curious what that means. And all the while President Biden is touting his ability to make bipartisan deals to create legislative achievements in Congress.
So maybe to set the stage for us, what happened in the last Congress? That was the 117th Congress. The book is closed on that Congress. What are, in your view, are the biggest challenges and opportunities for global business coming out of the legislation that was achieved in the last Congress?
Chani Wiggins:
Hi, Scott. Well, thank you so much. I'll jump in as the Democrat. So as you know, we had Democratic House and a Democratic Senate along with our Democratic administration. And so surprisingly, there was some bipartisanship and the Congress and the administration enacted a massive infrastructure bill. So that was one of the first things out of the gate. And again, it was bipartisan. It meant that tens of billions of dollars were going to go out and be invested in all kinds of infrastructure, from broadband to transportation to water, EVs, electric vehicles, energy efficiency, you name it. If it was related to infrastructure, it got money and it will be getting money and all of that money's going to be rolling out now.
The other big thing was the IRA, the Inflation Reduction Act, which is sort of a very messagey title, but the bottom line is that also provided about $367 billion in additional investments in climate, clean energy, incentives, as well as health care and providing more affordable health care premiums for various recipients as well as some less expensive drug pricing and insulin. So that's sort of the big takeaway on the money. That one wasn't quite bipartisan, but still it was considered a massive accomplishment, especially for clean energy and climate.
Scott Maberry:
Thanks, Chani. Yeah, Elizabeth, what are your thoughts about the biggest challenges and opportunities coming out of the 117th Congress?
Elizabeth Frazee:
So Republicans will look at all the money that got spent last Congress as a major problem, and there will be a ton of oversight on the spending programs that were stood up under the IRA and the IIJA. But let me turn a little to the things that did not get done last Congress, which we were surprised by, and one of those is in the antitrust area. Senator Klobuchar, who is the Chairwoman of the Antitrust Subcommittee and the Senate Judiciary Committee, introduced legislation at the beginning of last Congress that would be a major overhaul in competition policy for the largest tech platforms.
There was a ton of support for that legislation, from others in the tech sector and those companies that are implicated by tech. And there was a huge push. She had Republican support. And the bills went nowhere. And we think that she'll reintroduce them again this Congress. There are a number of bills that address different parts of tech competition, but Senator Klobuchar will continue to push, but now it's going to be very hard for her to get anything done because of Jim Jordan, who is the new Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee. Jordan opposed the movement of the competition bills when he was the ranking member on the Judiciary Committee. So we'll see what happens on antitrust.
On privacy, things were teed up. The business community was ready to help push across the finish line major comprehensive federal privacy legislation that was supported by the three corners, I would call them, the Chairman of the House Energy and Commerce Committee, the ranking member of the Energy and Commerce Committee, and the ranking member of the Senate Commerce Committee. And Chairwoman Cantwell, who is the Chairman of the Senate Commerce Committee, stood in the way of that legislation moving forward.
There was overwhelming supporting in Congress for it. Well, Cantwell remains the Chairwoman of the Senate Commerce Committee, so we'll see what happens in the 118th Congress. The players are staying the same except now we have Ted Cruz involved in the mix who is going to be the ranking member of the Senate Commerce Committee.
So it's going to be interesting to see whether some of the bipartisan pieces of legislation that are more focused not on the big issues but consumer protection issues will be able to move forward in this Congress.
Scott Maberry:
So antitrust and privacy would be something to look out for, and that'd be of extreme interest to our listeners. So that's definitely a good thing to flag coming forward. And that actually brings us nicely into the next topic I wanted to discuss with you, which is the current Congress is divided, meaning Republican House, Democratic Senate, and doesn't that just set the stage for gridlock?
Elizabeth Frazee:
Well, yes, it does. And we are going to see a lot of partisan attacks taking place. Luckily, FY23 appropriations has already been enacted into law. So the US government is funded until the end of September. So that is a very positive thing for international companies. Don't want to see the federal government come to a stop. However, they are going to start the appropriations process for next year right away. And we'll be waiting to see the President's budget, will get sent up in the spring or late winter. And we'll be watching to see the Republican reaction to the President's budget.
Scott Maberry:
Take us back, if you would please, through the connection between the budget and the debt limit and the appropriations. What's going to happen? I mean, as we're recording this today, the headline is that the government will have reached its debt limit today. Is that right? And what does that mean and what's going to happen next?
Chani Wiggins:
Yes, technically the government will reach the debt limit today and then for the next five months, Secretary Yellen, Treasury Secretary, and the administration will pull all kinds of mechanical strings to drag that out so the government doesn't default on its loans through what we're hearing is June and July.
Elizabeth Frazee:
There will be a group of the most conservative Republicans in the House who want to hold this conversation over to make a point that federal government spending needs to be cut and they will refuse to raise the debt limit until spending is cut. And it's going to be interesting to see how the new speaker reacts to that.
Scott Maberry:
My view is he thinks that he can now herd all these cats because that's kind of what he does. He's made a career of herding cats and maybe that's what he's going to do now, and maybe he'll bring the House under some kind of control. It doesn't seem like it to me. Operationally, it just seems like it would be impossible, but it's going to be really telling what he's able to achieve. What would we expect in this Congress by virtue or by reason of the fact that we've got the speaker in the position he's in and also the rules package that's, in my lifetime, pretty much unprecedented? I've never seen anything like it.
Elizabeth Frazee:
Well, they're going to start out with the core Republican issues that are part of the Commitment to America that Kevin McCarthy really ran on to become speaker. And one of the top issues is border security and keeping immigration limited at the border. And you mentioned it earlier, Scott, there will be a ton of scrutiny on Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas. And some are calling for impeachment and maybe Republicans will go down that path with the Secretary of DHS as opposed to the President of the United States. Republicans have done that in the past and it hasn't worked out so well for them.
But I expect that the House Judiciary Committee, Jim Jordan's the chairman as I mentioned, and the House Oversight Committee, and that's Congressman Comer, who's going to chair that committee, will be holding a number of hearings where DHS comes in and has to defend how they've handled the border.
Scott Maberry:
And since the border is a constant crisis, that's going to be a very lively series of hearings it seems like.
Elizabeth Frazee:
Indeed.
Scott Maberry:
And also since there are some real firebrands on that committee, if I'm remembering correctly, Marjorie Taylor Greene was appointed to oversight also, is that correct?
Elizabeth Frazee:
As well as Lauren Boebert. And she was one of the 19 holdouts and one of the very end holdouts in the speaker vote.
Scott Maberry:
Yeah. And for our international listeners who aren't intimately familiar with those two and others in that same, I guess I would call them a cadre, they are extremely conservative and putting it charitably I guess, do not feel bound by traditional rules of discourse in Congress. Is that a fair statement?
Elizabeth Frazee:
That was a great characterization, Scott.
Scott Maberry:
Yeah.
Elizabeth Frazee:
It's interesting though, Marjorie Taylor Greene was known as someone who was really the most outspoken against House leadership and a huge supporter of former President Trump, and she became one of Kevin McCarthy's biggest supporters during the speaker vote.
Scott Maberry:
The question in my mind is are they going to be more interested in legislation or more interested in burning it all down? And I think that's not only Kevin McCarthy's dilemma, but that's our dilemma as a society and all of us watching it will watch powerlessly as they decide which they're going to do. And that brings us around to Senate. So I've heard you guys talk about the Sinema factor. Tell us what the Sinema factor is in the Senate.
Chani Wiggins:
So the Democrats were super psyched because we had, Senator Raphael Warnock from Georgia won the runoff election in December. We were in good shape for about 24 hours. And then Kyrsten Sinema comes out and says, "No, I'm going to be in independent. I'm registering as an independent. I'm not a Republican. I'm not a Democrat." And that actually created additional new uncertainty.
So we were back to sort of 50-50 with a little bit more, which means that Sinema apparently sort of indicated to the Democratic Leader Schumer, "Hey, I want you to tell me which committees I'm on." So in other words, she's saying, "All right, I'm going to kind of play with you guys. I'm not going to go to your caucus lunches and caucus with you typically, but I'm going to still let you be in the majority," is basically what her wink-wink was.
So that creates some new dynamics in this Congress. She is up for reelection. She's not overly popular with Democrats right now in Arizona, which is a purple-ish, red, back to purple kind of state. So this could be that kind of calculation. She's always been independent.
She's already engaged on potential bipartisan legislation, and one of them, that's the big issue and that's immigration. So she went with Thom Tillis, a Republican from North Carolina, to the border just last week after President Biden went to the border. So they're talking about maybe some narrowly crafted bipartisan immigration legislation to address some of the problems down there at the border.
Scott Maberry:
That's a great segue into let's talk about what we think will come up in the divided 118th Congress. What is it going to mean for business? And we may as well start where you just took us, which is immigration. First, for business in the United States, what are the things that need to be fixed with respect to immigration?
Elizabeth Frazee:
Well, businesses need more workers, right?
Scott Maberry:
Right.
Elizabeth Frazee:
And so we're hearing from clients that they can't find the workforce to provide the goods and services that are being demanded. So it would make sense to change immigration laws to allow more illegal immigrants to come in so that they can contribute to the American workforce.
I think in spite of the fact that Tillis and Sinema are working on bipartisan legislation in the Senate, I think that's going to be a really hard sell in the House Judiciary Committee to get legal immigration reform across the finish line. Congress has tried for decades to reform the immigration system.
Scott Maberry:
That's going to be a hard sell, as you say, and I think it's because the hard right wing of the Republican Party doesn't have much base support for lawful immigration increase either. I think it's really hard for me if I were a very conservative Republican to go back to my district and say, "We need to increase immigration in this narrow area." And we're talking mostly about H1-B visas. We need more people who can come in on a visa and do specialized work that we don't have enough Americans in the United States to do. But if you tried to articulate that in one of these congressional districts, you wouldn't get past the first couple of words because the question then always politically comes back to, "But what about all the immigrants streaming across the southern border?"
Elizabeth Frazee:
It feels like there has been a bit of a sea change in the American workforce. We talked about needing H-1Bs for years and trying to get the numbers bumped up, and now we're hearing from the service sector too that they can't find the employees to work in hospitality or to work in manufacturing. So I think the problem is really compounding, but it will take a really long time for those conservative districts to be impacted enough by a workforce crisis for ideology to change.
Scott Maberry:
I think that's a headline. I actually think that we've got a very big problem brewing because it's easy enough I think from a certain perspective to dismiss big businesses need for a few thousand or a few tens of thousands of workers that can do specialized work, but it's a little harder to dismiss the fact that your mom-and-pop shops can't find the employees they need to run their business.
Chani Wiggins:
Or the farmers.
Scott Maberry:
Or farmers. That's an excellent example. And I'm not super representative because I go to a lot of big cities, but a lot of big cities I go to, you go into the hotels and they've got half the staff they did five years ago. It's just a problem everywhere you go, and lawful immigration is a great solution to that. But politically, it's going to take a lot more for people to come around to that. And my concern is that if we wait until it's a crisis, it might be too late. It might be very hard to legislate a solution to a problem like that five years from now. I don't see it happening in this Congress. So that's I think something for our listeners to kind of think about and prepare for.
What about other potential bipartisan issues? You've mentioned tax extenders. Take us through that and what would that mean for us?
Chani Wiggins:
Well, I think there is strong bipartisan support for some tax policies that expired in the last Congress. And one of them, the key one is this one that's called Section 174, the R&D tax deduction, which impacts industries across the board. I believe that this is one of the small things, but still very significant tax policies that could move in this Congress.
Elizabeth Frazee:
And a big question is if they're able to pass it in the early days of the 118, is there any way that they can make that retroactive to apply to 2022? And I think that's going to be hard to do. So companies are going to be put out of some money more than likely because they're going to have to continue to amortize research expenses over multiple years as opposed to having a straight-up deduction.
Scott Maberry:
Okay, good. Well then, I guess that brings us to kind of one of the big things we've said we would come back to, and that's oversight. Thinking about, there will be investigations probably into the President one way or the other. In my view, there will probably be impeachment proceedings against Secretary Mayorkas. I mean, I'm taking the Republicans at their word. They seem to be adamant about that. Tell us what you think is going to happen in terms of the Republican-controlled House with oversight responsibilities over the Democratic administration where we are so divided between Democrat and Republican in American society today.
Elizabeth Frazee:
It's going to be really active area. And we've got some new select committees that have been stood up in the House. One is the select committee on the weaponization of the US government, and that is going to be in the House Judiciary Committee. Congressman Jim Jordan, who we've discussed at length here, is going to chair that committee. There's also a new select committee on China competitiveness, and that is going to be chaired by Mike Gallagher from Wisconsin.
Both of those committees are going to have very active oversight agendas. The one on the weaponization of the US government will focus out of the gate on the Twitter files and how some US government officials, in particular at the FBI, may have worked with social media companies to push forward their agenda, the administration's agenda on COVID policy, on Hunter Biden's laptop, on a number of areas that Republicans have identified as problematic.
Scott Maberry:
January 6th insurrection.
Elizabeth Frazee:
January 6th insurrection as well. So I suspect that the select committee on China competition's going to look at the origins of COVID as well and whether the COVID virus came from a lab in Wuhan. And that has been a narrative that we've heard over the years during the pandemic from Republicans. So it will be very lively...
Scott Maberry:
Yep.
Elizabeth Frazee:
... and will have to answer to the questions that Republicans are asking. But in the Senate, as we've discussed, Democrats are controlling the gavel and there will not be the same types of hearings in the Senate.
Scott Maberry:
Which coming back to impeachment tells me that even if somehow the Mayorkas impeachment went forward as I kind of believe it will and came to voting for impeachment, that would have to get through the Senate too, right? So that's not really going anywhere in the end.
Chani Wiggins:
No, it's not going anywhere in the end. Look, this is just my partisan opinion. They've got to find somebody to impeach. Mayorkas is a great target for them just because of the immigration issue. It's not because he's done a terrible job. I mean, they would argue that he's done a terrible job. But sometimes you got to follow the rules, the law, and you've got your hands tied behind your back. So it's complicated. And that's just from my own experience working over at the Department of Homeland Security.
And I think with Biden, unless there's some kind of big smoking gun in this latest classified documents snafu, scandal, whatever you want to call it, that that's just not enough to impeach the President. Or unless they find something on Hunter Biden that's just overwhelmingly damning, which I highly doubt. So they have to have a target. The Senate, yeah, I don't think they'll act on any kind of Mayorkas impeachment, but it'll be a terrific messaging tool for the other side.
Scott Maberry:
Yeah. Lots of political hay will be made over it for sure. What's the big takeaway for business? What are our listeners going to be seeing coming out of that that really matter to them?
Elizabeth Frazee:
So I think there's going to be a lot of noise. There will be a lot of theater. But we have found over the decades that during divided Congresses, business does continue to get done. And we've seen tech issues get addressed during divided Congresses. We've seen privacy legislation, although not comprehensive, but privacy legislation around the margins has been done. Cybersecurity legislation.
There are areas where Congress will continue to be able to work together in a bipartisan way. And I would watch the Energy and the Commerce Committees and see what they're able to move forward. Also, the Transportation and Infrastructure Committee is likely going to be very busy, as well as Ways and Means and Senate Finance. And we may see tax legislation.
Scott Maberry:
Well, we'll call you back in a short while to kind of monitor some of those and see what's happening in the 118th. That brings us to the topic of what's going to happen in the next election cycle for 2024. Of course, we really don't have a crystal ball, but if you had one, what would it tell us? Is Congress going to stay divided? Who are the presidential contenders going to be for 2024? What are your thoughts? Chani, we'll start with you.
Chani Wiggins:
That's a loaded question, or loaded questions. In the Senate, the Republicans have a fantastic chance of gaining the majority actually. We have I think more than 20 Democratic seats that are up in 2024. Luckily, for the Democrats, so far not a lot of really strong candidates we're hearing about from the Republican side. But two years, that's a lifetime away. So I'm sure they'll be coming out.
So I think there's a decent chance that the Republicans could take over the Senate. But this is a presidential election year, so everything kind of also depends on the top and who's going to be at the top and running for the top position. President Biden seems to be intent on running again. I don't know if that's really going to happen. I mean, so what President is going to say that they're not running again just in the beginning of the third year of their first term? Nobody.
Scott Maberry:
Right. That makes you a lame duck too soon.
Chani Wiggins:
Exactly. We don't have any idea what he's going to do. So for me, I think the jury's out on who's going to be our Democratic presidential candidate. Maybe it will be Biden, but who knows?
Scott Maberry:
Excellent. Thank you very much. Okay, Elizabeth, what are your thoughts on 2024?
Elizabeth Frazee:
Who the heck knows, Scott? I am still reeling from that speaker vote. But we'll wait and see. DeSantis seems to have some real momentum behind him. People are praising the way that he was able to corral resources in the state in the wake of the hurricane. And he has done a good job as the administrator for Florida. And he very well may be able to leverage that into his presidential bid.
We still don't know what's going to happen with the former President. I know there are some members of the House who have already come out and said that they would support his candidacy. Most Republicans are playing it safe and being quiet on that topic for now. And then there are the host of others who came out in 2016 that haven't taken their names off the table yet, so we'll just wait and see on that one.
As far as control, I think it really depends on whether there are government shutdowns, what happens with the debt ceiling and all of that. And it's in the hands of the Republican majority in the House to show how they govern.
Scott Maberry:
Well, that's why we have frequent updates from you, so we'll look forward to coming back and discussing those issues. Thinking about former President Trump and how you mentioned that most Republicans in Congress are playing it safe and staying quiet about his candidacy, that to me seems unusual in that the former President has announced his candidacy. He is a candidate, isn't that right?
Elizabeth Frazee:
He is a candidate. He did announce his candidacy and there was not a lot of fanfare around it. It was a very quiet announcement. He chose a peculiar time to do it, right in the fall around the Republican ascension in the House.
Scott Maberry:
Yeah, it's very peculiar to me because that seems not consistent with what I would consider to be his generally pretty good instincts for publicity and for getting attention. So I don't know what he's doing. And I guess maybe that's what some Republican members of Congress are reacting to by staying quiet about his candidacy.
Elizabeth Frazee:
Yeah, I think that's right. And at the same time, they are not staying quiet about the confidential documents that President Biden had at his residency and at the Penn Center. They are going to use that as an opportunity in all of these oversight hearings to just continue to go back and say, "President Trump did nothing wrong by having all of the documents at Mar-a-Lago because every President does it, the Vice President did it."
Scott Maberry:
And it's been the narrative all along. In fact, I would say that that was former President Trump's number one defense, everybody does it. And the Democrats, and I consider myself one of them, dismissed that by saying, "Well, that doesn't mean that it's okay for you to do it." And I guess I still believe that it's not okay for anybody to do it, including Biden, including Trump, but I think it drained that issue of all of its power against former President Trump. And it creates what I would consider a moderate to severe vulnerability for the current President.
Elizabeth Frazee:
I agree with you.
Scott Maberry:
Yeah, totally idiotic move. Hard to fathom how that could be allowed to happen in the atmosphere that we're in right now. It makes me think we are not very good at governing ourselves as a nation. We've gotten worse at it. I remember reading in Peter Zeihan's book, The End of the World Is Just the Beginning, he makes the point that the United States in the last 70 years has been so powerful and so successful we haven't needed to be very good at self-governance, and so that's why we aren't. So we'll see. I think things are changing and we might have to get better.
Elizabeth Frazee:
Right. I think he's right.
Scott Maberry:
Yeah. Well, I want to thank you both very much for taking the time to be with us again. I look forward to our next update together and we'll pick up on all of these issues then. Thank you very much.
Elizabeth Frazee:
Look forward to it, Scott. Thank you.
Scott Maberry:
Thanks. Bye-Bye.
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