The Legit Ledger Podcast Ep. 9
Tokenized Real Estate and Metaverse Land with Laura Pamatian and Jared Wachtler
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Listen to the original podcast released September 19, 2022 here: https://www.sheppardmullin.com/multimedia-421
In this episode of The Legit Ledger, Laura Pamatian, founder of the oldest independent advisory firm in the blockchain space to focus strictly on real estate HeightZero Real Estate, and real estate attorney Jared Wachtler, a member of Sheppard Mullin's Blockchain Team, discuss tokenized real estate and metaverse land, including the advantages of tokenization in the real estate space, high-level regulatory and legal concerns, and the concept of virtualized land in metaverses.
About Laura Pamatian
Laura Pamatian is the founder of the oldest independent advisory firm in the blockchain space to focus strictly on real estate. She has 20 years of experience in the domestic and international marketing and sales of luxury resort and vertical real estate development. Specializing in investment product, she has represented numerous 5-star, globally recognized brands, including; The Ritz Carlton, Mandarin Oriental, Auberge Resorts, and Grand Hyatt.
As a key member of the growing FIBREE Miami Chapter (Foundation for International Blockchain and Real Estate Expertise - fibree.org), Laura is instrumental in branding FIBREE throughout Florida. She is also a member of GBA (Government Blockchain Association - gbaglobal.org) and the Chair of FBBA's Real Estate Committee (Florida Blockchain Business Association - fbba.io). She works closely with thought leaders in the space to organize initiatives and events to create more public, and private sector awareness and understanding of the transformative technology blockchain brings to the real estate industry.
About Jared Wachtler
Jared Wachtler is an associate in Sheppard Mullin’s Real Estate, Energy, Land Use & Environmental Practice Group in the firm’s New York office. He advises clients in varying economic situations and guides them in their needs and decisions regarding all aspects of real estate finance, development, acquisitions, sales and leasing, and land use matters. As a member of the firm's Blockchain and FinTech team, he also helps bridge the intersection between blockchain, FinTech, and Real Estate.
Jared's clients include private equity funds, investors, developers, lenders, family offices, crowdfunding vehicles, and other owners with real estate transaction needs in New York and throughout the United States. He also represents the buyers and sellers of commercial properties, including residential, retail, industrial, and office projects.
Hello, everybody. And welcome to episode nine of The Legit Ledger. We're excited to talk to you today about tokenized real estate and metaverse land, some fascinating topics. I'm Jim Gatto, Co-head of the Blockchain Team at Sheppard Mullin, with one of my colleagues, Jared Wachtler, who is a Senior Associate in our Real Estate Group and also a very significant member of our Blockchain Team, particularly focusing on blockchain-based real estate issues. We are very excited to have today Laura Pamatian, who comes to us from Palm Beach, Florida, and she is the founder of Height Zero Real Estate, which focuses on AI and blockchain for real estate and development. And we'll hear a little bit more about that in a second.
But first, welcome to both of you. Thank you for being here.
Thank you for having me.
Great. So Laura, maybe you could kind of give us a little bit more overview of your background. And in particular, it's always interesting to hear how people got into the blockchain space. I would love to hear how your background led you to where you are today.
Yeah, thank you. So thanks for having me. I really love what you guys are doing. And it's so important in this space. So thank you for doing this.
A little bit about me. I've been in real estate and development for 20 years. I started in general brokerage on the Island of Maui. I niched into luxury pre-construction, hotel- branded resort real estate. So that would be like Ritz-Carlton Residences, Mandarin Oriental, Auberge, Fairmont, Grand Hyatt. I ended up in the Caribbean on several of those projects, and then ended up, long story short, back here in the states in South Florida.
So a couple of years ago when COVID hit, I also advocate against child trafficking, I was on a legislation call and one of the girls was talking about how AI was affecting the industry in a positive way and what was happening. And I thought, oh, well, I'm familiar with blockchain and AI. And jumped on a call with her, and turned out they were building a blockchain. [I said I] would really love to be part of what you're doing. And she said, "Well, we need a consultant for the real estate vertical." They were launching 11 different verticals at the time. And I said, "I'd love to."
So that's how it started for me. And then I realized very quickly, learning a lot of what was happening in real estate, that it was going to change things dramatically. And in that moment, I decided to pivot my career into the space. So I launched Height Zero, and now we're consulting real estate, commercial property owners, developers on how to implement the technology into their projects to gain competitive edge, because it really does do that
That is awesome. That's a great story. So tell us maybe a little bit more about, you just touched on briefly what Height Zero does. Tell me a little bit more about what High Zero does, kind of the scope of it, because it seems like there's a fair amount that you guys do.
Yeah. Anything that really has to do with the real estate space. My background is in real estate and development, so that's kind of my lane, my comfort zone. But we are working in all aspects of that space. So any kind of technology, Web3 technology, blockchain, AI, AR, VR, smart buildings. A lot of the tech that's starting to come into the space and really changing it, we're helping those developers and clients to implement that in different aspects of their companies.
So with tokenization, which obviously we have a tremendous traction, we've been focused on that. But other things too, like NextGEN sales galleries and what's happening with crypto transactions and blockchain transactions and NFTs and things like that.
Great. So you mentioned tokenization of real estate. That's certainly one of the topics we wanted to cover today. Maybe just to kind of set the stage before we dive into that. There's obviously a number of different trends that are happening with respect to the use of blockchain and real estate. In addition to tokenization of real estate, what are some of the other trends that you see?
Yeah. Well, we're seeing the management of the transaction, even the traditional transaction being managed on blockchain. So even walking through a traditional [transaction], the lengthy process of a sale, that's being managed on blockchain as well. And we're also seeing the flip side of that, of issuing and transferring title and the deed through NFTs.
So in that, obviously that's a very different way of doing business and the sale [of property], everything on that front. The sequencing of all of the steps in the real estate sale are on the front end. So everything is done prior to the property listing and being sold. And typically, it's a very quick transaction. The buyers do their due diligence. And so that as well.
Those are just kind of the practical applications. There are other applications out there that we're seeing that aren't necessarily [being utilized yet], they're just a little bit more speculative. But for this, I think that we have good traction because it's practical.
Yeah. So much more efficient, and it seems like it's going to really change the way things are done. Having bought houses, it is one of the most cumbersome processes. It takes so long. There's so many different parties involved. There's so many costs involved. And it seems like this is an area that's really ripe for disruption with blockchain and smart contracts and NFTs and all the great technology that's being used.
Jared, anything you want to add as far as high- level trends that we're seeing with blockchain and real estate?
Yeah, I think Laura really touched on a lot of them. I think that practically speaking, what at least I'm seeing is either tokenization or the transfer of effectively an interest in the ownership of property vis-a-vis NFTs. So the way that they're doing it, to very much simplify it, is basically that we're taking an ownership of an LLC, let's say that I own the house. If I own the house, then my name is on the deed [personally, as an individual]. We would deed it to “Jared Wachtler LLC”. I would own 100% [of Jared Wachtler LLC]. That ownership would be basically represented by an NFT. And then I would transfer the NFT vis-a-vis a wallet from me to the purchaser. And then they would own that token that [represents] the [ownership] interest in the entity [Jared Wachtler LLC] that owns the property. So it's not like a deed transfer in the typical sense, but that's how it's working as far as NFTs go.
The speculation side of it, I think that there's a lot of room for disruption. It's just kind of far away. And I think that that's globally, not just in the U.S., especially in countries where land records are a little bit harder to verify. We have a very strict system in the United States, but in other places if you can show ownership on the blockchain, it could really revolutionize the way that property is held worldwide. So that's in the long term, in the future. But right now, I think property transfer via NFTs and tokenization are kind of the two main ways. I think cryptocurrency transactions are sort of a red herring, but we can talk about that later.
Yeah. You mentioned, I think, we kind of take for granted here in the U.S. we have a very well-developed title systems for land. And I know in many countries, some third-world countries there aren't title systems, and so people can't borrow against their houses easily. And so this is an area that I think in the U.S. and places where there's an existing title system, I think you touched on this Jared a little bit, where NFTs are kind of almost, for now at least, in parallel with the existing title. They're going to kind of co-exist unless and until jurisdictions switch over to blockchain-based technology.
And I believe Chicago and some other jurisdictions have tested some of this for title systems. But in third-world countries or other places where there's no title system yet, it might be easier to implement this from the beginning because there is no parallel system to compete with. So I think that will be an interesting kind of trend to watch as things go forward.
Even more to that point, one of the things that I think could be really revolutionary is, let's say that you are in a third-world country, and there's a mudslide, and the land records of that town are destroyed. You can't prove that you own that house. There's just no way. They don't have digitized records in a lot of these places. The blockchain would eliminate that.
Yeah. Good point. Yeah, it's really, really interesting. So we've talked a little bit about what tokenization is and a little bit of how it works and we touched, I guess, on some of the advantages. Anything else on the advantages side that we haven't touched on that you want to mention, Laura or Jared?
Yeah. I mean, I think when we talk about tokenization, what's kind of a broad topic with tokenization, including NFTs, tokenization including security tokens, utility tokens that are happening in the real estate space. But with security tokens, with the representation of interest in, say, a commercial building, we're seeing a lot of interest in that and helping to democratize that system. Because traditionally, when you're trying to invest in a commercial property, you have a very large capital requirement, investors are limited in their access to deals, there's a lot of things that are hurdles.
So with tokenization and using security tokens, and Jared could probably touch on that, the regulations and things like that, that make this very practical, there's a lot of speculation, like we were talking about, and what's happening in the crypto space and the crypto market. And just trying to get really clear and do a lot of education that this has nothing to do with cryptocurrency coins. They're completely separate, they're totally different entities, and how they're used and regulated, etc… So, I think that that's really important for us to try to differentiate too when we're talking about how this is working in real estate.
I agree with you 100%. I actually think that the volatility of cryptocurrencies hurts the overall real estate and blockchain space because it is really separate and apart. It's just kind of built on the same technology.
But the way that I view tokenization is sort of like crowdfunding 2.0. Crowdfunding after the Jobs Act got passed was basically the way that smaller investors had the opportunity to diversify and invest in real estate. But now it's been elevated by the idea of tokenization. So instead of me just subscribing to somebody like Rich Uncles or one of these other entities, which are all very useful, I think that there's another opportunity during the tokenization process for utility coins and for secured coins that are tied to property. And the way that that can then evolve is amazing.
Yeah. So let's talk about evolution. So, I mean, two things. One is what are the predominant things you're seeing now? We talked a little bit about kind of tokenization generally, but any particular projects or anything that come to mind that are interesting or noteworthy? And what do you see as the next evolution and where things are going to go in the next few years from here?
Yeah, I think just what Jared was saying in the crowdfunding aspect. I think that there's this idea about what crowdfunding is and what tokenization can provide. And even if we're going to tokenize like, say for instance, in an example, we have a hotel building and it's a $100 million building and the owner needs capital for renovation. And if they have equity in that building, maybe they have $30 million of equity and $70 million as leverage, maybe they need $10 million. We can help them through tokenization to capitalize on their own terms.
They have this equity, kind of dead capital sitting in these buildings that they can access now on their terms, provide equity tokens, security tokens, interest to investors, and allow themselves to recapitalize and redeploy that capital. So if I need $10 million for renovations, I can issue through a securities offering through security tokens to one investor, 10 investors, 1,000 investors, 100,000 investors now.
It really gives everyone an opportunity, depending on how that offering is structured, etc.... But it's giving the idea of crowdfunding and just bringing it to a whole new level in a different way in that you can now invest in real estate that you never could before. And that for a lot of people is a game changer.
Yeah, absolutely. That's great. Jared, anything else you want to add as far as kind of trends or before we move on to some of the next topics here?
Yeah. I just think that it makes a lot of sense from an issuing perspective to think about the other applications that people can use. So it's not just the ownership in real estate, but it's what comes with that and the fact that it's fungible on the secondary market.
So when you [previously were] tied up in an LLC, in a limited ownership interest, in an entity that owns an entity that owns a piece of property, it makes it really hard to get out. But now these tokens will be fungible and tradable on the secondary market, [which] means that you can get cash quicker. And you could also build whatever you want into a token. It's maybe not just the ownership, but it's that you also get certain perks with it. There's just so much that you can do when you have these tokens. And the issuer is in control. So you can incentivize people beyond just this passive income. There's other options and opportunities.
Yeah. I mean, we're seeing this really incredible idea of tech in DeFi, security tokens, being able to collateralize now these security tokens. So I'm an owner, I have $30 million in my building, I convert that to tokens, security tokens, and then I can take this now and in the future potentially, I don't want to say now because this is what we're working on, but to a DeFi lender and collateralize those tokens.
And it's a game changer in that now if I need a million dollars and I take this, my security tokens, $1 million denominated tokens to this DeFi lender and I collateralized that, they give me the million dollars. And now moving forward, if you think about if I were to default on a traditional loan, what happens? I mean, we're talking about a very significant event. Where if I default on a DeFi loan and they held my security tokens, they own equity in my building now. That's their claim. So there's a lot that we're starting to see that has potential in the space that is going to be very significant for owners even if they're not raising capital.
Yeah, very good point. That's really interesting. So Jared, just real quick, this area, I know you do a lot of work in real estate and cover a lot of these legal issues. Obviously, with the security tokens, there's securities issues. But maybe you could talk through some of the other legal issues or maybe even just a little bit more about the security issues just briefly, just to at a high level identify some of the issues that people should be aware of.
I think that buying and selling and issuing tokens is a complicated process and we're still in flux as to how these tokens are going to be categorized by the SEC and by the regulatory agencies. Do you need a broker-dealer license in order to sell a token? If you do, how do you go about applying for it? What hoops do you need to jump through?
I think that it's a very complex process. And a lot of times, there are third-party providers that are doing the tokenization process. If I'm an owner, I can go to a third party and they can do it. But then you have to really understand what it is that you're agreeing to with respect to your property and how that's going to be broken out and how the tokens are going to be issued, who's going to own it, and what kind of lockup periods there are.
So I think the biggest challenge beyond just understanding the process and understanding what you're doing is the changing landscape. We don't know what the landscape's going to look like three years from now. It could be very different or it could be similar. And we're sort of working towards that.
And Jim, I think on the regulatory side, I'm sure that you're seeing a lot of this as well where what the world looks like today could look very different in six months. And it's very easy to sort of say, "This sounds great. I'm going to jump in head first." Or "I'm going to build a platform that people can use." But to understand the regulatory requirements is going to take time and it's going to take the evolution, and some people are probably going to get dinged along the way and it's going to be a pretty steep learning curve.
Yeah. I mean, the uncertainty in this space, not just the real estate side, but just crypto and tokenization and the regulatory issues is a challenge and one of the kind of impediments to an even faster growth of the industry than what's already happening. It seems like there's some efforts underway to try to get some regulatory clarity, although it seems to be a pretty slow process.
So in the interim, I think that one of the things that we recommend to companies that are doing anything in the crypto or blockchain space is to get legal counsel early on to identify issues so that you may be aware of some of the issues you're going to face. But oftentimes, when we talk to clients, there are other issues they're not aware of. And so part of it is kind of getting that advice early, just even hour or two of advice just for issue spotting so you are aware of all the issues. And many times, while there is some uncertainty out there, there's a lot of guidance and precedent. And at best, sometimes we can provide risk mitigation for clients. You can't give certainties just because there's not a lot of certainty out there. But that's one thing.
And then the other thing that often we're able to do is people are doing some really innovative things and it's cool and we love working with innovative people. Unfortunately, sometimes things that are very innovative kind of create legal issues as well. So sometimes we can help tweak a business model to make it less legal risky but still innovative and new and different and exciting. And so that's one of the kind of things we get jazzed about doing every day is to be involved with these unique legal issues and business models and help companies see them come to fruition.
Practically speaking, I think it's an even bigger impediment than it is from the legal perspective, or at least regulatory-wise because real estate moves very slow and adoption is very slow. A lot of the people that are in the [real estate] space have been in the space for generations and they don't like change. And because you're talking about, in a lot of cases, most people's net worth and significant assets, it's just going to be very hard and continues to be hard, Laura could speak to it probably even more than me, to get adoption and understanding and education out there.
Laura was talking about lending. But if you have a senior mortgage, how do you explain to an institutional lender what tokenized real estate looks like and what effectively is a pledge of your interest is to a second party, to a mezzanine lender or second lender or second position?
So practically speaking, the education piece is what is going to be the biggest impediment for implementation on a broader scale, which is kind of what we're talking about here.
Yeah, I would agree 100%. I think that's the biggest hurdle is education and trying to do things the right way and educating lenders and educating the owners and the investors and staying compliant and making sure that... It's really a touchy situation. You want to push the industry forward and you want to progress with the industry, but you also want to make sure that everything's being done the right way as we can today, which means following the rules that we have today while still trying to move forward. So it is a fine line. And obviously, working with legal and making sure that that counsel's in place from the beginning is so critical. I mean, we're really adamant about that.
That's definitely important insights for people to take away. So we're kind of nearing the end of our time here today. It's kind of flown by. It's been a great conversation so far. But before we end up, I do want to talk a little bit about another type of land and real estate, and that is virtual land in metaverses. A lot of people have a hard time wrapping their head around why anyone would buy virtual land. And I think that that's an interesting topic. Maybe you could kind of walk us through just briefly at a high level what virtual land is within metaverses and why people buy it, what's the utility of it.
Now, are we going to let Jared answer that?
Yeah. Sure. So basically, there's a whole bunch of different metaverse worlds out there. I think that the biggest, the most notable one would be Meta has their own, or Decentraland. And there's a couple of different metaverses, right? And the idea is that people are going to enter into the metaverse via their rig, and then they're going to be doing different things, they're going to have different experiences. And so the idea is that you're going to have places to go. And who's going to own where you're going? Those are going to be the owners of the virtual real estate. And there are a bunch of different platforms that are out there. And who ultimately wins, I'm not really sure.
But when looking at the actual real world real estate, there's a lot of analogies to what is happening [in the metaverse]. There's only a limited amount of space. And you can buy the real estate and then you can lease the real estate [in the metaverse]. And when you're leasing the real estate, it's the same kind of concept. I own this piece of property and let's say that a brand, let's say Bottega Veneta, they want to open up a store where my avatar can walk in and I can buy something and then it will ship to me in the real world.
But Bottega Veneta doesn't want to invest that capital today to own this piece of real estate in Decentraland. So instead, they'll go to somebody that owns a building. It could be next to Snoop Dog's house, he has a place in Decentraland, and we can say, "Okay, I want to have my store right here because people are going to be walking by." So I can lease that space.
And the leasing issues are similar but different. I don't have to worry about a holdover tenant because I can more than likely just kick them out. But by that same token, they need to pay rent. We need to have a body of a document that shows how much rent they're paying. I don't need the security deposit necessarily, but I still need to make sure [I’m protected]. And that's all set up vis-a-vis smart contracts.
So it can be very easy. But at the same time, you still need to have this leasing agreement in place. So it's the same concept as a brick and mortar store. But it's different in that it's all done in this virtual world, which in my opinion is very much going to become as commonplace as Instagram or any of these other apps. It's going to be a new social media place where people are diving in head first. And as it gets built out over time, we're going to see people spending a lot of time in the metaverse, spending money in the metaverse, and really building out these platforms.
Yeah, that's great. I think one of the things, we'll drop into the show notes when we put together a little piece on metaverses and some of the legal issues, but I think just to kind of expand on the land part for a second. I think one of the things that sometimes people, again, have a hard time understanding is that metaverses are really just kind of a more recent incarnation of a virtual world. So for companies that remember Second Life, which is actually still around, but these are 3D, immersive, interactive worlds where people, instead of just seeing something on a computer screen, you have an avatar in that world and you interact with other people and things within that metaverse.
And part of the business model of the platform providers, whoever's providing the virtual world or the metaverse, they sell land and people, as Jared mentioned, people buy land because in order to build things in that metaverse or virtual world, you have to own or have land that you can buy or lease. But someone buys the land, and then you can build stuff on it.
And people are building all kinds of interesting things. In addition to shopping malls, brands are creating replicas of real- world places so people can preview them through AR, VR in these 3D worlds before they go travel somewhere or commit to some experience. So I think there's some of the value that people are finding in these areas right now.
And there's also a lot of venues, concerts, and other. Again, because it's a social environment, as Jared mentioned, people are creating venues and all other types of buildings just like we see in the real world and bringing people together in different ways, whether it's to transact business or to interact socially or be entertained. And so I do think it's really fascinating.
And one of the things that people when they compare metaverses to the early virtual worlds, early virtual worlds didn't really take off in part, but I think that what's different now is that technology has really caught up. I mean that the 3D technology was kind of clunky back then. VR has come a long way. It's getting ready to go mainstream. It's starting to go mainstream. And so I think when you combine that with the underlying blockchain technology where land or other things are kind of tokenized and there's marketplaces that could be more easily administered in a decentralized way, I think is really this combination of things that really is pretty exciting about what's happening with that.
I know it's crazy to think about it, because it's a movie, but Ready Player One and what those worlds look like, there is potential to look something like that where you kind of jump into your VR system, you go interact with people, you go from place to place. Now, obviously, the movie element aside, but the idea of walking into a place virtually, that's a very real thing.
Yeah. And I think that that, kind of when we're talking about real estate, I really like to focus on the practical application of a lot of what's happening right now. And I think practically for the metaverse, using VR to create a virtual next generation kind of sales gallery for new pre-construction. With my background, it was always difficult. We worked in the Caribbean. We had projects down there. And people would be on island and they'd have to fly down and we'd have to try to get them information abroad and all of these other things.
With the metaverse and with digital twin development, we can now create this digital twin of the product. And what does that mean? It means I can walk into the space, maybe it's a new condo building in the Caribbean, and we can now have them come into this space. I can have a sales gallery in Miami, right here in the U.S., and they just have to get to Miami.
And then we have this open space and they put on their [VR] goggles and they basically walk right into the condo unit, whether that's on the first floor or the 15th floor. And I can see my view and I can walk around my one bedroom or two bedroom or four bedroom or penthouse with the click of a button. I can see all the different types of finishes. Do I need a light finish, a dark finish? Do I like this kind of tile? In the click of a button.
We can actually go and experience the island. I can go and take a walk on the beach. There's all of these things that you can now do with this technology that is going to change a lot of the way that we do things. And a lot of times the reason why people can't make a decision or they won't commit to a purchase sometimes is that they don't understand. They don't really know exactly what they're going to get. "I'm just going to wait and I'm going to try to figure this out later." Or "We'll come back when it's a little further along." But with this technology, I mean I can go and see how big, in virtual space, how big the bathroom is and what my shower's going to look like and what my kitchen space is going to look like and how much room I actually have to walk through, I don't know, the hallways.
So it's really amazing technology that we're able to start implementing now with VR. It's incredible.
One thing I'll add to that is a lot of people when I explain that to them, they say, "Well you can do kind of 3D virtual tours right now." I think this technology is more sophisticated. And one of the other advantages of using a metaverse is that you can have the building owner or the developer can have virtual assistants through an avatar. You can not only be experiencing something, but you can have someone leading you through it as well and answering questions in real time. And that's very different than just doing a 360 tour by yourself and spinning around a room and kind of seeing what's there.
So again, I think there's some great advancements with the technology. I'm sorry, Jared, you were going to add something?
Well, I was just going to say the amount, especially here in New York, for example, developers spend millions of dollars on sales galleries. They lease a space down the street and they have a completely built-out apartment where they're putting in top-end finishes and they're spending money on rent because a lot of times they don't own the building where they're doing the sales gallery. It'll be down the street because they're using [the ground floor of the new development] to build out retail space. So the amount of money that a developer could potentially save as the technology advances is really significant.
Yeah, that's such a great point. And that's exactly why I think we're seeing traction, right? They're spending millions of dollars on this gallery or this model unit and it's finished one way. It's one way. You don't have any views. You have to go in there and still imagine. And it's a lot of money, like you're saying. They're spending millions of dollars sometimes to build out something that people still walk into and they're like, "I'm still quite not sure."
And then to just demolish it. They have to do the work.
Right. Yeah, exactly.
Well, this has been an awesome conversation. We're at the end of our time. We're actually kind of beyond our ending of our time a little bit. I'm sure we could continue this conversation for hours, but unfortunately we must bring it to an end.
So let me just conclude by first thanking Laura and Jared for joining this really interesting conversation and just say that we appreciate you all tuning in. And while we just touched at a high level on some of the legal issues, really kind of just want to stress if you're jumping into this space, it's really good to get some basic legal advice early on to understand what the issues are. We'll drop, as I mentioned, some information in the show notes that will provide some guidance on some of these topics.
And so with that, I just want to thank everybody again, thank everyone for joining this episode, and until we speak again, keep it legit. Talk to you soon.
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